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> From: Marco Del Giudice <marcodg@unm.edu>
> To: Sergey Budaev <sergey.budaev@uib.no>
> Subject: Re: Norwegian Research Council project: STRESSALGO: an invitation
> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 15:57:28 -0700
>
> Here you go. Let me know if it works.
>
> Cheers,
>
> M
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> I suggest a change in fig 2. On top there seems to be "something" that feeds into 3 SCs which integrate and make a GOS.
> 1) it would be better to have a grey "explosion" above each SC, ao the reader does not think this is a single event.
> 2) The arrow from stimulus to response should have been broken with explanatory texts: "Competition between SCs" and "strongest SC taking control"
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Barbara Taborsky is also in project
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> From: <barbara.taborsky@iee.unibe.ch>
> To: <sergey.budaev@uib.no>
> Subject: RE: Norwegian Research Council project: STRESSALGO: an invitation
> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 00:23:32 +0000
>
> Hi Sergey,
>
> Sure, it would be an honour to be involved in this interesting project.
>
> Thanks for the text (the grant now has a new number, but still the same grant.
> I did not see the CV template attached, maybe you forgot?
> But I am afraid, as I am leaving tomorrow and its late, I can anyway not do much on it. I send you a CV, which by conincidence has 4 ages, but it’s the format I needed for the Swiss funding agency where I applied in autumn
> I also send a more or less actualized publication list of the past 5 years I had prepared for that. it has two pages.
>
> So if the 2 pages "major achievements" in the CV are not suitable, you could replace them by the 2 pages ref list.
>
> As I did not get the template I don't know what is best, but perhaps the CV is allright as it is.
>
> Again, good luck and please let me know how everythign worked out
> Barbara
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> From: Lynne Sneddon <lynne.sneddon@bioenv.gu.se>
> To: Sergey Budaev <sergey.budaev@uib.no>, Jarl Giske <Jarl.Giske@uib.no>
> CC: "Kristiansen, Tore" <torek@hi.no>, Christian Jørgensen <Christian.Jorgensen@uib.no>, Ivar Rønnestad <Ivar.Ronnestad@uib.no>, Sigrunn Eliassen <Sigrunn.Eliassen@uib.no>, "Nilsson, Jonatan" <jonatan.nilsson@hi.no>, "Folkedal, Ole" <ole.folkedal@hi.no>
> Subject: Re: STRESSALGO r12058
> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:23:07 +0000
>
> Dear Sergey,
>
> I put my comments and edits on the last version Jarl sent. It's a fascinating proposal.
>
> Best wishes,
> Lynne
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> From: Jarl Giske <Jarl.Giske@uib.no>
> To: Sergei Budaev <Sergey.Budaev@uib.no>
> CC: "Kristiansen, Tore" <torek@hi.no>
> Subject: RE: STRESSALGO r12058
> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 20:15:58 +0000
>
> Here are comments to pages 3-6.
> The comments I sent earlier today to pages 1-2 are not in this document.
> Jarl
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> From: Jarl Giske <Jarl.Giske@uib.no>
> To: Sergei Budaev <Sergey.Budaev@uib.no>, "Kristiansen, Tore" <torek@hi.no>
> CC: Christian Jørgensen <Christian.Jorgensen@uib.no>, Ivar Rønnestad <Ivar.Ronnestad@uib.no>, Sigrunn Eliassen <Sigrunn.Eliassen@uib.no>, Lynne Sneddon <lynne.sneddon@bioenv.gu.se>, "Nilsson, Jonatan" <jonatan.nilsson@hi.no>, "Folkedal, Ole" <ole.folkedal@hi.no>
> Subject: RE: STRESSALGO r12058
> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 12:49:50 +0000
>
> Very nice, Sergey! To see it all in 11 pages.
> Here are some suggestions from me to increase readability of the 2 first pages.
> Can you see comments in the margin? Or shall I convert to a different format for comments?
> jarl
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> From: Hector Zenil <hzenilc@gmail.com>
> To: Sergey Budaev <sergey.budaev@uib.no>
> Subject: Re: Norwegian project: STRESSALGO
> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:47:49 +0400
>
> Great. Very interesting project, I wish I had more time to give you
> feedback on short notice.
>
> DOB 26/02/1977
>
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> From: Jarl Giske <Jarl.Giske@uib.no>
> To: Sergei Budaev <Sergey.Budaev@uib.no>
> Subject: RE: STRESSALGO r12058
> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:55:00 +0000
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sergey Budaev <sergey.budaev@uib.no>
> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 3:02 PM
> To: Jarl Giske <Jarl.Giske@uib.no>
> Subject: Re: STRESSALGO r12058
>
> Just found a small issue, your CV has tick on Project manager
>
> S
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> From: "Kristiansen, Tore" <torek@hi.no>
> To: Sergey Budaev <sergey.budaev@uib.no>
> CC: Jarl Giske <Jarl.Giske@uib.no>, Christian Jørgensen <Christian.Jorgensen@uib.no>, Ivar Rønnestad <Ivar.Ronnestad@uib.no>, Sigrunn Eliassen <Sigrunn.Eliassen@uib.no>, "Lynne Sneddon" <lynne.sneddon@bioenv.gu.se>, "Nilsson, Jonatan" <jonatan.nilsson@hi.no>, "Folkedal, Ole" <ole.folkedal@hi.no>
> Subject: RE: STRESSALGO webforms updated
> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 09:00:31 +0000
>
> Hi Sergey, all
>
> I also think the main focus should be on modelling and understanding stress, but since (we believe?) stress is caused by uncertainties (uncertain beliefs) and prediction errors (surprises, unpredicted changes) about the near future, and/or deviations between current state and the animals goal state (too hot, too exposed, too little food, etc.), I think this (uncertainties) must be central for modelling and testing of models and design of experiments, and understanding stress. The stress response is mainly mobilization of energy and attention to handle near future challenges. Stress is also a bit over used and much studied concept, so we need to find a way to give the evaluators a feeling of new and exciting discoveries.
>
> Cheers
> Tore
--------------------------------------------
> From: Jarl Giske <Jarl.Giske@uib.no>
> To: Sergei Budaev <Sergey.Budaev@uib.no>
> CC: "Kristiansen, Tore" <torek@hi.no>
> Subject: RE: STRESSALGO r12029
> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 09:19:49 +0000
>
> "To survive and thrive, animals need efficient strategies to reduce uncertainties about their environment and the results of their actions. They have evolved adaptive behavioural strategies for this."
>
> I do not like these sentences, for many reasons.
> 1) to include "thrive" can give the reader the impression that we think that evolutionary processes are work to make life good for animals.
> 2) To say "they have evolved" is to place the animal as actors in their evolution, as if they themselves have orchestrated the process (in order to thrive).
> 3) They are not only uncertain about the results of their actions, but also the results of the options they did not take.
>
> This is why I suggested this change to Tore's text:
> "To survive and reproduce, a mobile animal benefits from efficient strategies to reduce uncertainties about the state of its environment and the effects of its behavioural options. Adaptive strategies for dealing with uncertainty have therefore emerged during evolution."
>
> To keep it in line with Sergey's new text, I suggest
> "To survive and reproduce, animals benefit from efficient strategies to reduce uncertainties about their environment and the results of their actions. Adaptive strategies for this have therefore emerged during evolution."
> Or, ever better, I think (and then rewritten to singular form):
> "To survive and reproduce, an animal benefits from efficient strategies to reduce uncertainties about the state of its environment and the potential effects of its behavioural options. Adaptive strategies for this have therefore emerged during evolution."
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> From: "Kristiansen, Tore" <torek@hi.no>
> To: Sergey Budaev <sergey.budaev@uib.no>, Jarl Giske <Jarl.Giske@uib.no>
> CC: Christian Jørgensen <Christian.Jorgensen@uib.no>, Ivar Rønnestad <Ivar.Ronnestad@uib.no>, Sigrunn Eliassen <Sigrunn.Eliassen@uib.no>, Lynne Sneddon <lynne.sneddon@bioenv.gu.se>, "Nilsson, Jonatan" <jonatan.nilsson@hi.no>, "Folkedal, Ole" <ole.folkedal@hi.no>
> Subject: RE: STRESSALGO webforms updated
> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 15:54:21 +0000
>
> Hi Sergey and Jarl,
>
> Attached are some comments and suggestions. The text still need to more structured and simplified and clear if we shall convince the evaluators, and catch their attention and get them excited about the project, (but I guess this is something you are well aware of). At the moment too many words and references, and a bit too complicated to follow. I suggest we also put a stronger focus on the relationship between uncertainty and stress, and the uncertainty about the brains perception and predictions (that can be leading to stress and anxiety, ..), and how and what strategies are best under uncertain conditions. This will depend on the development stage and environment (e.g. if it can starve for hours or weeks, etc,). All organisms (except cats) can only die once, so risk avoidance should be preferred? (The Darwinians are however more concerned about the opportunities for sex and this is correlated with some stupid and risk taking behaviours, especially by males : ) .
>
> I am a bit unsure if we need more details in WP4 (Experiments), but the design og experiments depend on the modelling results in WP1-3, so it is not easy (or wise) to do that.
>
> How do we proceed now?
>
> Cheers
> Tore
---------------------------
> TK:
> The brain sits inside the scull and gets all its information through its sensory systems and must guess what is the most probable causes of these signal patterns.
> (Should we start even more basic – Friston like)
>
> SB:
> We need to start with STRESS
---------------------------
> TK:
> Too strong statement?
>
> SB:
> Yes
---------------------------
> TK:
> Hormones are signal molecules that are very energy efficient broadcasting of messages to all cells in the body (and only the cells the message is relevant for has a receiver (receptor) for the message. Signalling by molecules is also the brains main choice, when speed is not urgent (and electric signals are needed). The endocrine systems cannot bee seen as an independent system from the brain?
>
> SB:
> Of course they are not independent. But physiologists often view them quite separately, there is a clear need to use a holistic whole-organism approach! Not to split it into slices :)
---------------------------
> TK
> Interesting, but have this been explained sufficiently? Since feelings also are concepts made from fuzzy interoceptive signals they can be “wrong” or “false alarms”. Fuzzy interoceptive signals can be interpreted as pain, hunger, fear, etc, when it is adaptive to respond to false models. E.g. it can reduce risk taking or increase feeding opportunities. Since we only can die once, I hypothesise that “false alarms” of potential dangers will be most prevalent (and adaptive)
> SB:
> Very well said
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> From: Jarl Giske <Jarl.Giske@uib.no>
> To: Sergei Budaev <Sergey.Budaev@uib.no>, Sergei Budaev <Sergey.Budaev@uib.no>
> CC: "Kristiansen, Tore" <torek@hi.no>, Christian Jørgensen <Christian.Jorgensen@uib.no>, Ivar Rønnestad <Ivar.Ronnestad@uib.no>, Sigrunn Eliassen <Sigrunn.Eliassen@uib.no>, Lynne Sneddon <lynne.sneddon@bioenv.gu.se>, "Nilsson, Jonatan" <jonatan.nilsson@hi.no>, "Folkedal, Ole" <ole.folkedal@hi.no>
> Subject: RE: STRESSALGO webforms
> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 08:27:47 +0000
>
> Hi Sergey & al,
> Here are some attempts to make the forms more focussed on the need to improve theories for animal behaviour.
> Jarl
-------------------
> From: Sergey Budaev <sergey.budaev@uib.no>
> To: Jarl Giske <Jarl.Giske@uib.no>
> Cc: Sergei Budaev <Sergey.Budaev@uib.no>, "Kristiansen, Tore" <torek@hi.no>, Christian Jørgensen <Christian.Jorgensen@uib.no>, Ivar Rønnestad <Ivar.Ronnestad@uib.no>, Sigrunn Eliassen <Sigrunn.Eliassen@uib.no>, Lynne Sneddon <lynne.sneddon@bioenv.gu.se>, "Nilsson, Jonatan" <jonatan.nilsson@hi.no>, "Folkedal, Ole" <ole.folkedal@hi.no>
> Subject: Re: STRESSALGO webforms
> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 11:23:50 +0100
> Organization: Universitetet i Bergen
>
> Thanks a lot! One thing: I do not think we can write something like
>
> > Theories of animal behaviour generally neglect stress as a cause for behaviour
>
> Many potential reviewers will be quite annoyed.
>
> S
-------------------
> From: Jarl Giske <Jarl.Giske@uib.no>
> To: Sergei Budaev <Sergey.Budaev@uib.no>
> Subject: RE: STRESSALGO webforms
> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 10:36:06 +0000
>
> True, it is important to make sure the reader understands that this is about animal behaviour.
> Or is it not? Is it about a model for allostasis? I have been thinking that this is about understanding behaviour.
> But it's your choice, of course.
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> From: Ivar Rønnestad <Ivar.Ronnestad@uib.no>
> To: Sergei Budaev <Sergey.Budaev@uib.no>
> Subject: Re: STRESSALGO r11995
> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 09:32:14 +0000
>
> Just a minor correction.
> IvarR
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> From: Jarl Giske <Jarl.Giske@uib.no>
> To: Sergei Budaev <Sergey.Budaev@uib.no>
> Subject: RE: STRESSALGO r11995
> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2022 14:26:37 +0000
>
> Here are some comments and suggestions, Sergey.
> Jarl
---------------------------------
> Sergey: Although Sigrunn said she was too busy to participate, and Christian has been in the discussion, I still think it is better to include Sigrunn and not Christian. The team is very male-dominated, with only Lynne as female. All you need from Sigrunn is her CV, which she makes for the other projects.
---------------------------------
> Sergey: should the mid-word here (below) be an adjective? predictive homeostasis responses or predictive homeostatic responses?
---------------------------------
> I do not understand the first sentence here (do you need it?)
---------------------------------
> Sergey: find a way to include perspectives and papers of Lynne in this list, also. Second, you argue very much for computation here, but half of all costs in the project are live fish experiments.
---------------------------------
> I do not think you can afford not using every line to its full capacity 😊
---------------------------------
> HERE: CONNECT THIS WITH THE FREE ENERGY PRINCIPLE AND WITH BEING NEAR HOMEOSTASIS.
---------------------------------
> Sergey: the text below, as well as Figure 4 and its legend, does not explain that “the experimental data” also are from experiments with live organisms. Maybe the figure needs to show two separate boxes for experimental challenges; one for simulation experiments and one for live fish experiments. Also the text below should show that half of the costs in the proposal (IMR experiments) are important to the process and outcome of the project.
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> From: Jarl Giske <Jarl.Giske@uib.no>
> To: Sergei Budaev <Sergey.Budaev@uib.no>
> Subject: RE: stressalgo r11972 - Re: FW: Project participation?
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 08:30:28 +0000
>
> Here is some more, for the rest of the Excellence section
> -j
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> THIS COMING PARAGRAPH WAS CONFUSING TO ME BECAUSE LEVELS ARE USED FOR DIFFERENT THINGS. THE FIGURE SEEMS TO SORT OUT THREE LEVELS, BUT “LEVEL” SHOULD PERHAPS ONLY BE USED ABOUT MARR’S SYSTEM.
> I SUGGEST THESE CHANGES IN THE FIGURE:
> CATEGORY TINBERGEN’S CATEGORIES
> TINBERGEN’S QUESTION TINBERGEN’S QUESTIONS
> MARR’S LEVEL MARR’S LEVELS
> AND I SUGGEST THAT THE 3 BOXES AT MARR’S LEVELS ARE GIVEN NUMBERS FOR CLARITY: “1: COMPUTATIONAL THEORY” ETC.
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> From: Jarl Giske <Jarl.Giske@uib.no>
> To: Sergei Budaev <Sergey.Budaev@uib.no>
> Subject: RE: stressalgo r11972 - Re: FW: Project participation?
> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 21:15:27 +0000
>
> An attempt to simplify the reading of the first one and half pages.
> 😊
> Jarl (use track changes to see...)
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copied appetite signals for WP3
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additional arrow published to hypotheses
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changes to new H3
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H3 is non-bayesian emulation of probabilistic mechanisms
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modelling strategy: strong inference and pattern oriented
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genetic algorithm
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all figs width 14 cm
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H1 AHA framework with prediction architecture fig 2
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started hypotheses, copied from 2021 salmon project, for update
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outline of fish stress and appetite
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modelling system was wrong header
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ref to Del Giudice
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theory not hypothesis
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striped notes, to send to Tore and Lars
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Fig. 1: levels under focus grayed
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Feynmann note
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more complete scheme
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scheme for integrating Tinbergen's four questions and Marr's levels of analysis for mechanism
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modifications after Jarl's first round of comments
1. You may need to add "in animals" so that the proposal is not sent to some medic who does not understand all this animal nonsense.
2. I think you also here need to state clearly that you will study animals. Maybe say that stress is a gigaproblem for the modern western population, and therefore has been studied by a hoard of shrinks who have ignored the long evolutionary background. But thanks to these shrinks we now have a pile of empirical and theoretical studies that we can "take home": it can be set to use on all those animals in and for whom stress evolved.
3. Rather: Growth and survival
4. I would tread very carefully with mentioning any sort of "applications" here. It is legal to mention them later in the document (section 2.2 Potential for societal impact of the proposed research). Here I would rather say that stress impacts activity, space use, feeding, growth, mortality etc.
5. You do not explain why this is an urgent need, you just state it. And maybe it is a too strong statement. What if you rather said that it would be valuable for the study of most non-human animals to develop a theory that contains a mechanistic base?
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refer to revision
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add on hormones
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done objectives and basic approach
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done algorithms and dynamical systems, now objectives only remain to be done
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levels of analysis and algorithmic
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better name
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refs ai and causality
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refs on machine vision
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refs on fecal cortisol
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more refs added
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APA references easier to work with
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